Base Over Clear Then Clear Again
View Total Version : Base color over clear and reclear question?
SamIam
09-13-2017, 12:49 PM
I am painting a 68 vette, factory Safari Yellow. No flake, just base color. It is non a bright yellow but a little off yellow. The heavy lifting body work was washed by a professional auto painter friend of mine. He repaired the drinking glass, polyester primed, skimmed to get everything flat, and trunk panels aligned. All good. that was three years ago. I was in the center east for ii years.
I am purely a hobbyist simply am pretty serious almost it and do my own work where I can. I have restored over 20 cars and three wooden boats, most if which with top award credentials. I have a 6,000 sf shop and do have a paint berth with exhaust and practiced guns including a devilbis $400 finish gun.
At present I have pulled the car out of storage and sanded the unabridged car, practical polyester Evercoat high build primer blocking and sanding with 320. Twice. Then I durablock sanded car with 800. I am very happy with flatness.
I then applied 2 good coats of base of operations colour. Let flash off equally recommended. No runs. Then I did a adequately light fog coat of DCU 2021 PPG high solids clear. Harde209322093320934ner with reducer iv:1:ane. I let that tack off about 15 minutes. Then I did a pretty medium to heavy coat. No runs. flashed off 30 minutes. And then I did a third glaze. Good no runs. On the doors and hoods (off the machine) I then sanded downwardly with 800 and 1200, then flow coated two more than coats of clear. Then again 800 on durapad for orange peel and a few pieces of dust trash, and then to 2000, then to 4000 soft pad backed and then buffed iii steps wool and ii swirl steps using PPG 123, organisation. All very squeamish.
On the car, I let it sit down for about two weeks. Then I went in and sanded with 800 to get any trash and orange peel off. It is very very flat. I cut all the orange peel off and got all shiny spots out.
So here is the trouble. When I did the clear on the car 1) afterwards I cleaned my gun I looked through my pigment room window and a tiny gnat had landed in the paint above the filler pigsty. Damn! So i took an Xacto every bit the pigment was till wet, gently picked her out of the paint, and then put a heavy clear over the mess. That worked fine. And the 800 cut it dorsum down. But at that place are nigh three little tiny tiny specs that show upward nether the clear.
And so in cutting the clear down, I have three places on the precipitous rear fender ridge where I cut through the clear and the color. I don't know how equally I was very conscientious but these must have just been very thin. It is a hairline but none the less it is through to the high build. Additionally, I have about four places where there is just a tiny black spec like a pin caput. Have no idea how they got there. And it is in or beneath the clear above the color. On a yellow auto they are visible. Normal Joe would not see them in the parking lot only I exercise.
My question:
The unabridged auto is 800 dust sanded and is a nice fifty-fifty slow. Very apartment. Tin can I take a little spot touch up gun and merely mist a small corporeality of base color over these scattering of places where these little specs are? I am thinking it would take a spot the size of a quarter. And spot over the three small places where I cut through the colour.
And so re-clear flow coat the entire auto? Probably 2 adept coats of clear. I would then cut 800, 2000, 4000 and buff.
If I spot the places will you be able to see the layer of color over one clear and nether another articulate?
Also, if I spot the colour over the lower clear, do I need to lightly sand the base color to feather into the under layer of clear, or tin can I just base of operations glaze and then clear coat as you would normally after the base of operations color flashes?
Lastly, on catamenia coating the clear, I take used the recommended 4:1:i hardener and reducer. Should I add together say extra reducer say 4:ane;one.5 reducer to get it to flow better with less orange peel?
Sorry nigh long post but want to try and give plenty detail and so anyone that can help understands the context of the problem.
Sammy
Because y'all are using a solid/non-metallic color yous should be able to spot information technology easily. Nevertheless when you have an area that is sanded through to the base color or beyond you should SEAL it before you utilise more base color. The easiest fashion to do this is to shoot a little more clear over the sand-thru then scuff it prior to applying more base of operations color. The reason for doing this is that the solvent in the base can penetrate the old base at the edge of the sand-thru causing the edge of the clear to lift/wrinkle and the seal will terminate this from happening.
As far as the black spots go you should be able to just scuff, apply a little color then re-clear, no sealer needed because you're not sanding through to the base of operations.
PainterDave
09-13-2017, 03:09 PM
no do not over reduce your clear, and be very careful when clearing over sanded clear, it is slick and volition run like shooting fish in a barrel. dont permit that worry you just use circumspection.
xtremekustomz
09-thirteen-2017, 03:59 PM
If you thin the articulate down and do flow coats y'all are going to need more than than 2 to exist able to cutting that much. 2021 has to be sprayed a certain way to get it to lay down because it is a little higher solids than a lot of others. Past over reducing you are making a medium solids clear. If the car is going to sit within it won't exist that big of a bargain because the lord's day won't actually be a factor. The thinner a articulate is the easier it will lay down by itself. The college solids accept more technique but should final longer. That 2021 is severely overpriced. I've been told information technology costs PPG about $x to make a gallon if that...
PainterDave
09-thirteen-2017, 04:04 PM
if high solids clear is difficult to spray y'all do non prepare information technology by adding reducer...
if you use a viscosity loving cup you can play a little with reducer simply too should have a laser thermometer.
i use MS clear iii coats
cutting 800
2 rough coats
1 wet coat
dust nib and done
xtremekustomz
09-13-2017, 04:21 PM
if high solids clear is difficult to spray you lot practise non gear up it by adding reducer...
if you use a viscosity cup you lot can play a niggling with reducer but also should take a laser thermometer.
i use MS clear 3 coats
cutting 800
2 rough coats
1 wet glaze
dust nib and done
I didn't say "fix" it by adding reducer. Basically I said if you over reduce it will lay out ameliorate without whatever effort just like medium/low solids clears will. Some people can't spray loftier solids clears. I'm non proverb the OP can't but most people who take sprayed low (38% solids) usually won't easily be able to spray a 49% solids clear and get information technology to lay out the same. I've been spraying a 54% solids clear here lately and however working on perfecting it. It has basically been a trial and fault thing.
Out of curiosity what clear have you lot been using? The MS you are talking about.
PainterDave
09-13-2017, 04:35 PM
DeBeer MS
Usually what I use.
xtremekustomz
09-xiii-2017, 05:18 PM
DeBeer MS
Usually what I apply.
Yeah that should lay out pretty skilful. It is 35-45% solids. Kinda weird their tds has a ten% solids difference that it falls within. If I had to bet to relieve cost it would be on the lower end lol. Anything to brand an actress buck! Nason 496 is effectually 38% and it lays like glass too. Have you tried whatever of the high solids debeer? I guess technically their loftier solids would probably actually be medium solids. They don't disclose the solid content on the website for the high solids.
PainterDave
09-thirteen-2017, 05:43 PM
Yes I utilise the HS 8-104
I don't know where yous get the gap in solids. 1-204 is 43% solids
xtremekustomz
09-13-2017, 08:06 PM
Yes I use the HS 8-104
I don't know where y'all get the gap in solids. ane-204 is 43% solids
I was looking at the tds online. Information technology has 55-65 for volatile by weight then that comes up to 35-45%. I was just maxim it was weird that in that location was that much of a difference on the tds.
https://www.de-beer.com/TDS/agb/TDS1-204-A.pdf
PainterDave
09-13-2017, 09:05 PM
Yous're looking at the RTS VOCs ?
PainterDave
09-13-2017, 09:05 PM
https://www.de-beer.com/TDS/au/TDS1-204.pdf
SamIam
09-xiii-2017, 10:39 PM
Thanks guys. Proficient info. Two follow on questions.
What kind of sealer should I use? I have shopline sealer. Just not polyester. I take also been using a DP 90 or fifty in greyness on steel with I call up 2:1:.5 and the half reducer is supposed to make it a sealer. But Niether of these are polyester and my Tasco supplier has warned me on fiberglass to utilise polyester.
I am not anywhere near the bodily glass as information technology is going over a catalized Evercoat primer. But what should I use to seal. I am bold the seal should be light, just enough to comprehend.
On the articulate lay down I read on the forum somewhere to add reducer to the flow coat. I get calculation more reducer is only thinning out. Probably not a good idea. And yep the DCU is very expensive. I bought a gallon with the hardener and the reducer and total for effectively a gallon and a half of material was $471. And mine has laid down reasonably apartment. But however have to have the nibs of orange peel off. Whatsoever guidance on how to set up gun to eliminate every bit much every bit possible. I am running a nice devilbis finish gun that I but employ for base and clear. I think information technology is a 1.2 tip. I take been using a broad fan and most two turns back on paint. About 45 pounds of pressure at the gun with regulator on the gun.
Just trying to reduce the 800 cut after the flow coats as much every bit possible.
PainterDave
09-13-2017, ten:49 PM
I can requite you a gun fix up recommendation. What model you using ?
SamIam
09-13-2017, 10:56 PM
Unfortunately I don't know the model and I am out of town til Friday to get the number.
It is a cup gun and only has ii adjustments. The fan and the material. I take a regulator on the handle air inlet to regulate air pressure. My other primer and touch on up guns accept a little air adjustment at the base of the handle but this doesn't.
The first coat I accept been cut style back on material so I don't put too much on. One screw open up. Then 2 to 2.5 open on the second and 3rd glaze pretty wet but not wet enough to run it.
I volition get model and repost on Friday.
SamIam
09-13-2017, 11:01 PM
I just looked on the store and looks similar his gun. But mine is virtually four years erstwhile.
http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=ABS&Product_Code=DEVGFG670G&Category_Code=1D
If yous're using a full size gun you're probably not going to be able to keep the repair equally small. If we had those small blackness spots we would probably apply a detail gun or an air brush.
As far every bit a sealer goes I'd recommend that you utilise your clear. If you use a dedicated sealer you'll demand to employ enough color to hide the sealer and your repair area will get larger.
SamIam
09-14-2017, 08:28 AM
How practice I use clear as a sealer?
Do I just mist the area, allow wink, and then apply color allow flash, then become back with flow coating the clear practiced medium coats?
Wouldnt I have a blending trouble putting the articulate down over but a part of the clear?
And concord. I had planned to spot in the color with a petty small impact up gun. Big gun just to reclear the car.
How do I use articulate equally a sealer?
Practise I merely mist the area, let flash, so utilise color permit wink, and then go back with period blanket the articulate good medium coats?
Wouldnt I have a blending problem putting the articulate downward over just a part of the clear?
And agree. I had planned to spot in the color with a little small touch up gun. Big gun but to reclear the automobile.
You lot apply clear just like you would any sealer so let it to harden and scuff information technology to prep for your base. Your spot will expand with every coating application so clear then color a lilliputian larger so clear a footling larger or you can clear the unabridged panel.
The reason to use a decent quality clear as your sealer is that it's the same cloth that y'all'll exist painting and then the chance of a different look is minimized. Nosotros normally only apply clear as a sealer on small re-repairs and not over large areas were we normally employ a defended sealer.
SamIam
09-14-2017, 09:36 AM
Len. Cheers for replays. All proficient info.
I am a piddling worried that if I apply clear then color then reclear the entire car I will go build up in the small surface area and then when I go back to flattening after the clear I will cut dorsum through.
If y'all have a wait at the photo I sent I remember it is adept plenty to see that the burn through is right in pinnacle of a very sharp edge. And very small expanse. I put my finger in moving picture for calibration. And in have a fat finger.
What exercise you think the risk of lifting is?
Could I try spotting the color straight away and scout for lift. If it lifts and so stop, go dorsum and sand it then seal with articulate equally suggested. If it doesn't lift just go on to reclear the unabridged motorcar.
If the edges are going to elevator will that be evident in a few minutes within the wink time of the base coat?
SamIam
09-14-2017, 09:twoscore AM
By the mode I had planned to flow coat the entire car anyway. This is a vette and the car basically has a front and a back. No panel lines other than that. So pretty much take to exercise unabridged automobile. 20943
PainterDave
09-xiv-2017, 09:45 AM
You lot should exist fine just spotting in your spots. Dubiety you volition get border mapping but it is possible. Alloy them out put on light coats. Might have to 1000 grit wet sand a rough edge if you lot get i but you shouldn't. Tack it good and clear.
Looks proficient and then far
Len. Thanks for replays. All good info.
I am a little worried that if I apply clear then colour then reclear the unabridged motorcar I will go build up in the small-scale surface area and so when I go back to flattening afterward the clear I will cut dorsum through.
If you lot take a look at the photo I sent I think it is skillful enough to run across that the burn through is right in elevation of a very sharp border. And very pocket-sized area. I put my finger in pic for scale. And in take a fat finger.
What do you call back the risk of lifting is?
Could I try spotting the color straight abroad and watch for elevator. If it lifts then finish, get back and sand it then seal with clear as suggested. If it doesn't elevator but go on to reclear the unabridged auto.
If the edges are going to lift will that exist axiomatic in a few minutes within the flash time of the base coat?
Lifting is usually a trouble when you sand through the clear so apply color over the problem without sealing. If y'all employ clear or sealer you shouldn't have a lifting problem.
SamIam
09-14-2017, ten:01 AM
It is very apartment. I take probably 8 days of block sanding all the components after the "body work" was done. So very happy. And the doors and hoods are all washed and they are similar drinking glass later cut and buffing.
I call back I volition give it a get every bit suggested and run into if it works without sealing.
If it lifts I will but back up and follow Lens guidance on clear sealer.
I have not been tacking in betwixt the base and clear. Is that brash?
I thoroughly clean room and launder floor out equally I take a hose bib and slightly slopedfloor in the room to practise so. Make clean filters. I vesture a tyvek adjust head to toe. And I by and large wait overnight after room make clean and spray in the morning time then whatever dust in the air settles out.
Nonetheless getting a fair amount of trash.
Have not been running fan until tacks off but room gets pretty thick.
I think a fleck of trash is only function of the drill. But have not been tacking between base coat and clear.
If that is advised maybe always bit helps.
PainterDave
09-14-2017, 10:04 AM
Yous take a advantage spraying a solid color. Can dust in your base and spot in your bad spots easier than a pearl or metallic.
But spray low-cal coats (not dry coats) merely light. Requite more than wink time than normal. Take your time you volition be fine.
Yes tack your base before clear
It is very apartment. I have probably eight days of block sanding all the components after the "body work" was done. So very happy. And the doors and hoods are all done and they are like glass later on cut and buffing.
I recall I will give information technology a go equally suggested and see if it works without sealing.
If it lifts I will but back upwards and follow Lens guidance on articulate sealer.
I have not been tacking in betwixt the base and clear. Is that brash?
I thoroughly clean room and wash floor out as I have a hose bib and slightly slopedfloor in the room to practice so. Make clean filters. I vesture a tyvek suit caput to toe. And I generally look overnight after room clean and spray in the morning and so whatsoever dust in the air settles out.
Still getting a fair amount of trash.
Have not been running fan until tacks off but room gets pretty thick.
I recall a bit of trash is only role of the drill. Just have not been tacking between base of operations coat and articulate.
If that is advised perhaps ever scrap helps.
Is your base coat color activated/hardened? If not and you don't seal it AND information technology lifts you lot may create a trouble that tin can't exist fixed without filling the lifted area with a 2K primer. Lifting tin can be sanded off only can leave crack-like divots on the surface that paint isn't dense enough to fill hence the need for a filler.
SamIam
09-14-2017, 11:02 AM
I would think information technology is fully cured. PPG DCU 2021 clear with DC61 hardener and DT85 reducer. iv:ane:1. I think those are the numbers. Sprayed two weeks ago and let sit down. Then a few das ago started sanding to even dull taking out all shiny spots with 800 wet.
This is in Texas so has been in the 100s temp wise for a few days during this menstruation.
SamIam
09-14-2017, 11:06 AM
Pitiful I encounter you asked most base coat. Non clear.
The base coat is a Shopline base of operations glaze and that uses a JB base of operations and a JB507 reducer. 1:1.
I don't call back it has a hardener. Merely base and reducer for the base of operations.
xtremekustomz
09-14-2017, 04:29 PM
https://world wide web.de-beer.com/TDS/au/TDS1-204.pdf
It's a shot in the dark giving a solid content by the volume. Even if you get shut information technology would be off by most 5% probably. Information technology is more accurate when you get by the weight which would be between 35-45% somewhere but probably below the 43% as stated. Doesn't matter either way. Still thin enough to lay down actually squeamish. I think the 2021 is like 51.5% or something like that. I ever liked how the dupont 7900s sprayed because information technology was most the aforementioned solid content as what you are spraying. I didn't really have to do anything with it to get it to lay downward. Only spray and walk away!
xtremekustomz
09-14-2017, 04:30 PM
On some other note I spotted in white on my truck when I did information technology a few years ago considering I had an air hose hit it during clear. You can see where I spotted it in when the sun hits simply correct so I'd blend information technology out a piddling bit....
Sorry I encounter you asked about base glaze. Not articulate.
The base glaze is a Shopline base coat and that uses a JB base and a JB507 reducer. 1:1.
I don't recall it has a hardener. Just base and reducer for the base.
What tin can happen is that the sand-thru exposes base of operations color that tin absorb solvent from another coat of base of operations. This petty bit of solvent creeps under the edge of the clear and causes the clear to wrinkle. If you utilise a sealer over the sand-thru it stops the solvent from causing bug.
Some base coat products are mixed with colour, reducer and hardener and these products tend non to blot the solvent from additional coats similar those with only colour and reducer.
SamIam
09-15-2017, 02:23 PM
Len. You offered to give me some gun prepare up guidance for DCU 2021 Concept articulate to minimize OP. The gun I have is a Devilbis GTI. I meet no other mark other than on the correct side it says K-08
The tip is a GTI 213-14 with a 1.4 needle and the cap says 2000. A9 HVLP max inlet 30 psi.
I checked the air and it says lxxx psi at the wall filter. At the gun the regulator with trigger closed is at xl and can go to 80. Merely with trigger open full pressure level drops to 20 psi and seems to allow maximum of twenty psi. Same regulator on a cheap primer gun same operation volition menstruum as much as 40 psi. Back on the devilbiss I tin throttle air downwardly lower than 20psi with trigger open up but if I plow regulator all the way in at allows no more air flow than 20psi. Sounds pretty loud at 20psi. The DCU fabric sheet says viii-x psi at the cap HVLP only I take however to be able to find anyone that can tell me what that means or how you would measure.
Gun merely has a fan and material adjustment.3 full turns out goes to full stop on both adjustments
20957
Bob K
09-xv-2017, 02:51 PM
Are you talking about approximate readings with the trigger pulled but with the air cap removed similar y'all show in the picture? If so you need to install the air cap to take a meaningful pressure reading. The 10 pounds at the air cap is a legal requirement for the manufacturer and the manufacturer recommends a setup pressure that results in 10 pounds at the air cap. You tin't exercise the measurement without special equipment and yous tin can't spray with that equipment installed anyway so information technology's a number you don't need to worry about. It just means if you use the recommended pressure level yous will automatically get the ten# at the air cap.
Bob Chiliad
SamIam
09-16-2017, 09:xvi AM
I Simply wanted to thank everyone that weighed in in my thread.
I took the risk and did a light glaze of color then another calorie-free coat of color on thee places where I cut through. Waited for wink and no lifting.
So recleared the entire car as a flow coat.
Turned out very prissy. I got 2 little runs but they are more like a droop and will easily exist addressed in cutting and vitrify.
On the devilbis GTI gun I reduced pressure to near 30 psi at the gun inlet. Used 1 1/four turn out on fan and 2 turns on textile.
Got some orangish pare only pretty minimal. I retrieve no more than than new car. And in some places nearly none with 100% flow out.
Unfortunately, that tells me that is an "operator mistake" not orange skin (OP) issue and that I but need to work on technique.
Thanks all.
Sammy
xtremekustomz
09-xvi-2017, 09:47 AM
I Just wanted to thank everyone that weighed in in my thread.
I took the risk and did a light coat of color then some other light coat of color on thee places where I cut through. Waited for flash and no lifting.
And then recleared the entire car as a flow coat.
Turned out very nice. I got two little runs but they are more like a droop and will easily be addressed in cut and buff.
On the devilbis GTI gun I reduced force per unit area to about thirty psi at the gun inlet. Used i 1/4 turn out on fan and 2 turns on material.
Got some orangish skin simply pretty minimal. I call up no more than new machine. And in some places nearly none with 100% flow out.
Unfortunately, that tells me that is an "operator error" not orange pare (OP) issue and that I just demand to work on technique.
Thank you all.
Sammy
Yep like I said earlier sometimes with thicker clears you lot have to be the i to lay it out shine and non rely on the clear to practice it by itself. The thinner stuff is a cakewalk. Glad everything came out good though!
PainterDave
09-16-2017, 11:11 AM
When you reclear the clear flows out and goes on nicer.
Don't over reduce your articulate for "flow". Make sure your clear is e'er 70 degrees plus.
It volition brand your work come out nicer.
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